ALISON BEARD: Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Business Review. I’m Alison Beard.
Over the past several years in the United States we’ve seen two important social movements, MeToo and Black Lives Matter, move into the mainstream. We’ve read stories of women being sexually harassed and abused by powerful men in business, politics, and the arts. We’ve watched videos of Black Americans being brutalized or killed by white police officers. We’ve heard and participated in protests and calls for justice.
And now, finally, even in our workplaces, we’re beginning to have real conversations about topics that a lot of us used to shy away from, sexism, racism, discrimination, bias, and yes, white male privilege.
My guests today think that this is actually a huge opportunity for people who represent the majority groups in society and their organizations. They say it’s a chance for them to use their power and privilege for good. And for a lot of white men in the U.S., that will mean becoming allies to the women and people of color that they work with.
Tsedale Melaku is a sociologist who studies race and gender at the Graduate Center of City University of New York. And David Smith is an associate professor at the US Naval War College and coauthor of the book, Good Guys. Together with Angie Beeman and Brad Johnson, they wrote the HBR article, “Be A Better Ally.” And they’re joining me today for our first live virtual taping of the show in partnership with Sixth and I in Washington, DC.
Tsedale, David, thank you so much for being here.
DAVID SMITH: Thanks, Alison, for including us.
TSEDALE MELAKU: Thank you for having us.
ALISON BEARD: So I wanted to first start with the why. It might be obvious for some people, but it might not be for others. Why should the people with power and privilege in organizations seek out those in the minority and become allies to them?
TSEDALE MELAKU: It’s a great question. I think in this moment, in particular, when we are having uncomfortable conversations about race and racism and sexism in the workplace, it’s the appropriate time to start to name the problem and in so doing, we would be able to figure out ways that we could work towards solving those problems.
Why it’s important right now in comparison to any other time is because it’s always been important. Right? And this moment right now really does amplify the varying ways in which racial inequality has just been so pervasive in American culture and American society, but particularly in organizations. So as we are reading statements of solidarity and racial equity and the presumption that this is the work that we want to do on the streets, it’s also very important that we look within organizations in order to figure out how we could support those who are marginalized. Right? Black, indigenous, people of color who are having a hard experiencing racial and gender aggression in the workplace, and particularly how that’s reflected in the leadership, how that’s reflected in the ways that hiring, retention, professional development plays out in organizations.
And one of the ways that we can do that is holding people accountable, and particularly focusing on allies and allyship. Right? Because those are the folks who are inside doing the work to not only lift, but amplify the need to have racial and gender equity in organizations.
ALISON BEARD: And David, why, when many organizations do have formal diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives, why is it important for individuals to take it upon themselves to do this work?
DAVID SMITH: We find that in businesses in particular, that these kinds of programs tend to be housed up under – in human resources and HR, and diversity and inclusion over there gives a chance for leaders, people in the positions of power, the decisions makers, the influencers out there, to in many ways avoid the conversation. Because that’s something that human resources does. It’s not a part of the business or the core business outcomes that are so critical to the promotion, the advancement of where a lot of these equities and inequities today are reproduced. And so if we’re going to make a difference, we’ve got to get it out into the open, into the core part of what we’re doing in our businesses today.
ALISON BEARD: And how do you two define allyship?
TSEDALE MELAKU: I think it’s really important, just in the way that we’ve started to conceptualize what allyship means, because it’s not a new term. Right? It’s not a new concept. It’s been around for quite some time. And the way that we’ve conceptualized it, essentially, is just, it’s a strategic mechanism. I think being strategic about allyship is important. But it’s used in a way in which individuals then take ownership of what that allyship should be.
So becoming, you know, more than an ally often times, becoming a collaborator, an accomplice, someone who is going to co-conspire with you in order to fight, whether it’s racial or gender inequity or injustice, and at the same time promoting equity in a very public way. Right? Taking sponsorship and supporting the individuals that may be aggressed in a way that leaves them at the margins of organizations. So stepping up and doing that work publicly, putting yourself at risk often times in order to improve some of the workplace policies and practices that tend to perpetuate the status quo and racial inequality.
DAVID SMITH: It’s really getting past the individual piece of this in particular. It’s easy to say that, well, I’m not a racist, or I’m not a sexist, but then where’s the action in eliminating the, where the inequities are created. And so much of this is systemic, and it’s in the everyday practices that we have. And if we can see it, and we don’t do something about it, then we’re not truly being an ally. Right? I’m not being an accomplice. I’m not being that co-conspirator in eliminating the very systems that are reproducing this every day.
ALISON BEARD: Tsedale, what has your research shown on how those types of relationships can help, say, a Black woman in a white male dominated firm?
TSEDALE MELAKU: Very important. I think that, so in my book, You Don’t Look Like A Lawyer, the majority of the women I interviewed had a very difficult time being able to create, manifest these relationships of both allyship and sponsorship. Right? It starts with mentorship, and then the more substantive form is that sponsorship that most people are needing in order to be able to advance. But it’s also necessary in terms of how they’re able to access professional development, training, opportunities to shine.
And all of those important parts are very much connected to the sponsor that you have. The thing about Black women lawyers that I interviewed, is that they were recognizing that there was a stark difference in the way that they were experiencing access to these very, very important resources. And it often times had to do with narratives of Affirmative Action. Right?
So presumptions about their competence, the way that they dressed, the way that they looked. So like actual appearance played a significant role in how they were able to build these relationships, or these comfort relationships, which I talk about, that would lead to having a sense of community and camaraderie with potential partners who are 90% white males.
And white women, also, in these spaces, who are in positions of power. So for Black women, the recognition that it was very difficult for them to break down those barriers in order to form these important critical relationships was a barrier that was just very difficult to get through. So the majority of the women ended up either leaving the firm, switching to in-house counsel if possible, or either ending up staying, doing the track as long as they were employed, and then it eventually left them without alternatives. So partnership is something that is still the Holy Grail, still very difficult for Black women to access, and it has everything to do with how race and gender create very nuanced experiences for Black women, women of color, and how they experience the space.
So one of the things that I would say about allyship is, it’s a core thing that has to come from the individual wanting to do that work. Right? It’s not something that’s going to be imposed by an organization. Right? Even though there are going to be metrics now, in particular, because of the time we’re in that is associated with doing the work, bringing diversity here. But it’s, how are we nurturing that relationship, that then will lead to various forms of resource access and then eventual advancement?
ALISON BEARD: And David, in your book, you profile successful partnerships. So what does that look like within an organization?
DAVID SMITH: In our research, we found it really came down to three kind of key areas. And the first is that most people who are allies, they have a personal connection. They have a personal story, whether it was through a family member or was a colleague, a peer, a mentor or mentee, somebody had shared experiences with them about how they were discriminated against or there was microaggressions or how they were disadvantaged in various different ways. And what it did was, it got in touch with a sense of fairness, this injustice that we have, for somebody who’s important to us.
And once we have that personal connection, it’s interesting, you know, we all have that sense of fairness gene is us that once you’ve touched it, then there’s the motivation to do the work. For white men in particularly, this is really important, because sometimes as we engage, whether it’s in gender equity or racial equity, there’s people who are going to look at it and go, hm, I wonder what, why is he so invested in this? What’s in it for him? Because people are always kind of curious, I think, about that, and skeptical for some reason, you no knew, reasons that I think are very good in some cases. But it’s helpful to have that. To be able to share that narrative and be very clear about why this is important to you.
And I think, you know, first and foremost, that they’ve done that. And then they use that. They leverage to develop awareness, and they build trust in the relationships with their kind of their close inner circle of allies that they have. And we found so many of them, again, that they had a very diverse inner circle of, sometimes they called them gender confidants, women, women of color, that they counted on.
It was so critical because they would go to them, and they would say, hey, I learned this the other day. I’m not really sure if this applies to all women or all women of color. You know, what’s your experience with that? And they would use them as a sounding board, which I think is really important because again, we all come at this with unique experiences. We’re not a monolith, and we need to be able to account for the differences and unique differences that we have in the workplace, and not just say that all women or all women of color have these experiences.
And so the feedback loop is so important, because I think sometimes, in particular men and white men, that we don’t recognize how little we’re doing. We think, because we believe in racial equity. We believe in gender equity. Therefore, I’m doing the work. And in many cases, that’s not the case. We’re not doing as much as we might like to think we’re doing.
ALISON BEARD: So the allies are benefiting from the relationships, too… What about people who don’t have relationships with people of the opposite gender, or of different races? How do you being to form those relationships, those friendships, without it seeming forced?
DAVID SMITH: We had a lot of great conversations about this in writing the article, too. And I think in particular for white men, entering into conversations around gender and race, because it’s uncomfortable is what keeps us out of it. And we have to learn to get a little bit comfortable in this discomfort that we have talking about it, and it helps to have somebody that you can go to to do this. And so first, we always tell people to self-educate and make sure that in today’s world, that you’re out there reading. There’s plenty to read on it. Read our article, read our books. That’s a great place to start. But there’s plenty before that.
sAnd learn the history. Right? The history around racism, especially our country, is so deep, and it goes so far back, and it’s so helpful to understand it as a backdrop before you started asking questions and engaging in this with other people. Same thing around sexism, and again, women’s rights and inequality in this country. There’s so much history there that you need to understand before you start jumping in.
So self-educate and become aware and be able to understand and have that conversation. And then we’re you’re ready, I think when you go to that, again, to that trusted colleague, hopefully that you’re ready, you think you can have this conversation with. You still may not be comfortable. And you may have to ask to ask. And it’s OK. Right? Hey, Tsedale, can I, is it OK if I ask you about, I’ve been trying to learn more about racial equity in the workplace and really understand women of color’s experiences, and I’m just kind of curious, if there was one thing I could go more of, what would it be
ALISON BEARD: That brings me to ask the question, and Tsedale, it would probably be best if you answered this, how do you ask those sorts of questions and try to educate yourself when your relationship isn’t that close to begin with, and in a sense, you’re just adding an extra burden onto these black or Latino or Asian colleagues to sort of explain what it’s like to be a minority to you?
TSEDALE MELAKU: That’s a very thoughtful way of thinking about the ask. Right? Because you’re absolutely right. BIPOCs, right, are often times overburdened with having to share their traumas. You know, we’re talking about systemic racism that has, did not start in May.
So for me, when someone is interested in learning a little bit more, and authentically, genuinely wanting to have a better sense of what it’s like to be a racialized individual in an organization where you don’t see anyone at the top that looks like you, where you’re not getting sponsorship access, or access to resources. You need to be honest about your own particular intentions.
At the same time, it’s being intentional about widening your circle. Right? It’s not just the folks at work who are very few in number. But it’s the community that you’re in, the people that you choose to surround yourself with. So maybe taking the opportunity to acknowledge difference and be OK with it, so that you can learn how to engage with those who are othered in a particular way. And then that is going to help build your ability to have these conversations with your coworkers or, you know, anyone in the workplace that you’re engaging with.
But if it does have to start there, then it has to start with recognizing that this ask is going to lead to a very uncomfortable space in which Black people, I’ll speak directly to Blackness and Black people, since my research centers that, but also I’m a Black person, and I know what it’s like to have white colleagues reach out to me in that moment and ask those questions. I’m often left with the thought, where were you when, you know, I was experiencing a racial aggression? That’s a moment where we need to step up, right, in those moments, not just those public moments, when national news is centering it, but in the moments when we’re in our organizations, and we’re feeling the impact of racial and gender aggression and recognizing that it’s OK to be uncomfortable. If you’re uncomfortable, we’re going to move forward from there.
ALISON BEARD: One of the steps that you talk about in the article, and David just mentioned, is asking for specific feedback, you know, saying, have I ever been sexist, racist? Have I ever let something slide from a colleague that you found to be an aggression? What’s the best way to start that sort of conversation, and how do you get over the reluctance that women and people of color might have to share these stories for fear that, you know, you’re going to be defensive, or there will be some sort of retribution?
DAVID SMITH: Yeah, I think it comes back to the trust aspect, right, and the relationship. So if you don’t have that trust already in the relationship, it’s hard to get feedback. It’s hard to be able to have these really hard conversations. And show that you care. But I think in particular for those of us who might be in majority positions a lot, like myself as a white man, that if I’m going to be an ally, and I have to demonstrate that, then I also have to make myself open to feedback and make it clear that I want, that I desire that, and I value your feedback.
And when I get it, and sometimes you’re going to get it when you don’t expect it, and that may be some of the most important times you get it. That you have to respond in a way that shows you value that. And that you want more of it. And sometimes the immediate response that comes to your, might come to your mouth without engaging your brain is maybe not the thing that you ought to be saying . And because sometimes we automatically, we might feel a little threatened. And if we haven’t thought about what we want to say ahead of time, you might say something that you regret, or you didn’t mean to say.
We often talk to men about this quite a bit about, you need to have thought about this ahead of time. What are you going to say? Are you going to say, thank you? Wow, you know, that’s really insightful, and I want to think about that, because I’m trying to get better at this, and would it be OK if I came back, and we had a conversation later on, after I’ve had a chance to think about this some more. But something that shows that one, wow, I really, I’m very thankful that you said that and gave me that opportunity to have this conversation with you.
TSEDALE MELAKU: I think that the penalty of giving feedback is also something we need to think about, and also the power dynamics that exist in those spaces. So you know, in any institution, when you are one of very few, or an only, right, and you’re giving feedback to those who are in positions of power, the folks who are asking for that feedback have to be very proactive and intentional about recognizing the impact that feedback is going to have on their perceptions of that individual.
If you want unvarnished honesty, you need to be ready to receive harsh feedback that often times, you know, implicates each of us in the way that racial and gender inequality manifest. So I think it’s just important, if you’re going to do the ask, then you’ve educated yourself so that you’re not stumbling along the way while you’re asking those important questions. And also like layout your questions in a way that is receptive to the person who’s having to share.
Right? I think it’s important for those who are in marginalized positions, or who are marginalized in organizations, to be able to voice their concerns, because otherwise we’re being silenced. Right? And that drapes over this conversation in a way that doesn’t allow us to be honest about our own particular experiences because of the penalty of being honest.
ALISON BEARD: So we’ve talked a lot about information gathering so far. What about moving this toward action, you know, truly helping your underrepresented colleagues advance in your organization? How do you begin to do that?
TSEDALE MELAKU: I think there are a few ways we can do that. First, you know, and this is something that I’m working on now and have been for quite some time, is recognizing that in organizations, racial and gender equity have got to be intrinsic.
And that means that the leadership has to step up and do the work of ensuring that across the board their employees are recognizing the importance of racial and gender equity. So naming that problem, being intentional about not just working towards that racial and gender equity, but supporting and fostering relationships. Right? That’s going to be key with those individuals who are marginalized in that space. Leveraging diversity, right, and fostering that as an asset that drives impact in the organization is another way we can do it. Being very proactive, right, proactive about stepping up in the moment when something is happening, and recognizing it for what it is, an aggression, and then addressing it immediately so that public act of sponsorship that should happen. And —
ALISON BEARD: Would you just roleplay that for me, Tsedale? So, I’m a white woman. I see something that I think has made a Black colleague uncomfortable. What exactly do I say in the moment?
TSEDALE MELAKU: So in that moment, because, you know, the, what you have is privilege, white privilege, which gives you the benefit of the doubt. Right? So then you are able to say something without necessarily having to incur the type of penalty that a BIPOC would in that same moment.
So I would say, you know, Tom, what just transpired, whatever that was, you know, I don’t think that’s the mission of our organization. I think that we want to be able to recognize the importance of difference, and in this moment, I see that what you’ve done has made X, Y, and Z very uncomfortable, and I don’t agree with that. And I just want to make sure that we’re all on the same page in recognizing that this is not the way that we should be conducting business here.
So how do you think we can kind of rectify the situation? So even in that moment, directing the question to Tom, right, the aggressor, not the person who’s experienced that aggression, because it’s probably taking them to a place where they’re going to possibly be defensive, or very uncomfortable, because they’re having to recognize their own dehumanization in a space where they should be equals with everyone.
So in that moment, by you, Alison, stepping up and saying something, it’s giving everyone notice that this is not what we need to be doing in this company, and that we have a core mission, and that mission is to ensure that everyone is treated equally. What I think is important to also say here is, if we’re having a moment like that, and no one says something, and at a later point someone then comes to me and says, hey, you know, I know that that just happened. I’m really sorry. It really sucks. I don’t know what, that’s just horrible. I feel bad. That does absolutely nothing for me, because I’ve already experienced it, and I’m now having to deal with the fact that I need to make you feel better about me having been aggressed. Right? It doesn’t do anything, really. It shows me that, you know, I’m just not being supported in this space. And so what do I do? How do I move forward from this moment?
So it leaves all that work to me, so it’s the emotional. It’s the cognitive labor that I’m then having to expend in order to navigate this space, but also recognize the aggressive and then the response of people who should have been my ally. Right? And you have a lot of that. You have a lot of folks who believe themselves to be allies. And I think this is where it’s really important for us to do the work
ALISON BEARD: David, how have you seen successful allies ensure that their colleagues who are women or people of color are getting plum assignments and getting promotions, really making sure they’re taking those steps forward in the organization?
DAVID SMITH: Yeah, there’s lots of great ways to do that. I think first and foremost, we talked about sponsoring already, but I think you can do this, and we can, you don’t have to be somebody really senior in the organization even doing this for somebody junior. We can do that for each other as peers, where again, when we, as white men in particular, we often get the focus right, it comes right to us in a space, because people just tend to look at you.
And when we get that, it’s a great opportunity to what we call decenter. Take the spotlight away from me, and say, you know, that’s a great question. But you know, Tsedale’s really the expert here. I’d really like to hear what Tsedale has to say about that. And I’ve just lateralled the pass to her, or thrown her the mic, and not to throw her under the bus, hopefully, either. Right? This is to really to highlight her and her work and her expertise, where she may not, again, especially as a Black woman, she might have felt invisible in the space, because people just don’t see her in that way. And we can highlight that. We can make people visible and use, again, this is kind of using your privilege for good in that way.
But I think from a leadership perspective, the role modeling is really critical and important, and this means back to the being really clear and having an understanding and a clarity about why this is important to you, connecting it to your business, and communicating that in particular all the way down through your organization, especially to front line and middle managers who are implementing the everyday practices. And if it’s not important to you, it won’t be important to them.
ALISON BEARD: So I do want to turn to our audience questions, because we have many coming in. A lot of people are asking about the opposite problem, not having senior leadership support. I’ll just read one of them. Within my company, senior leadership has not wanted to address equity and racial bias in a visible way. So many of us have started grassroots efforts without formal company direction or sponsorship. What do you recommend as approaches to gain senior management support?
DAVID SMITH: We see this in a lot of companies and organizations today. And it does. And so we see often the minimal level support tends to be in employee resource groups or business resource groups. But it is an opportunity officially, I think, to come together and to build allyship. I think there’s a great opportunity for the women’s ERG or the Mosaic ERG, or whatever the name of the different ERGs, to come together in numbers, and to really influence leadership. Part of it is finding some of the executives sponsors who do care, and getting them tied into the program and beginning to show, you know, I think about this from a small wins. It’s like, we can’t boil the ocean, so let’s find small successes and show where we can highlight these, as we make change and difference at a very low level in some cases, and then begin to expand it and then show that, showcase it, highlight it to senior leadership, get them to buy in on that and begin to do that from the bottom up.
TSEDALE MELAKU: One of the things that I would say, and I’ve advised this across the board, is if your organization is one in which you, they have put out a statement, right, specifically noting that they are supporting and reaffirming their commitments to social justice, racial equity, then you need to take them to task about those statements. Right? And asking directly, especially if it’s a number of individuals who’ve gotten together and are spearheading this grassroots work, bring it to their attention and say, I recognize, we recognize that this is something that you have, you, the organization, the leadership, finds to be an important cause, an important value that we want to project onto the business world, or whatever space you’re in. And so, asking the question, you know, we want to be involved in doing this work, and it takes all of us in order to do this work. Otherwise, its’ just for optics, and that doesn’t do anything.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah. I think that was one of the things that made me so excited about your article, is that you know, corporate statements are not enough. Even DEI programs are not enough. It has to be everyone on the ground working with the support of senior leadership.
TSEDALE MELAKU: Absolutely.
ALISON BEARD: We do have a couple of questions about COVID times. You know, obviously it has been a very traumatic year for Black Americans. It’s been very hard for working women with children, working men with children, too, but all the research shows that the hardship is falling primarily on the moms. So I’m curious what would-be allies should say to those people from those groups now. And then we have a question from Chris who’s saying, how do you connect and build allyship with individuals at a time when face-to-face interaction is so limited?
TSEDALE MELAKU: So in a moment like this, again, it’s important for those who want and say that they’re interested in becoming allies to be very intentional and proactive about building that relationship because we’re able to build those relationships with clients, that we don’t necessarily always come face to face with clients, and yet we’re still building those relationships.
So I don’t think that COVID should preclude sponsors, potential sponsors and allies from doing that very intentional work of creating a community that relies on that trust, right, that relies on recognizing the ways that women in particularly in this moment, because it is COVID, and because the research does show that they are significantly disproportionately impacted by doing the homework on top of the work work, creating this third shift that seems to be penetrating and creating a rise in women falling off in the workplace as well. So just being very intentional about getting together, creating those spaces. Zoom is available. There are breakout rooms. There are various ways that you can build community. It’s just not only wanting to do it, but doing the work of doing it.
DAVID SMITH: Yeah, I like that phrase, doing the work of doing it. Because I think in particular right now, that’s what it takes. It takes an extra, I mean, it was a lot of work before COVID and work from home, and now it’s twice as much work. Even to be an ally, you have to overcommunicate. You have to be extremely thoughtful and aware, especially now I can’t read body language as well, because we’re in this little Hollywood Squares Zoom room, and you have to be a lot more attuned to what’s going on and thinking about having this in the back of your mind, thinking about who is not being included? Who’s not here in the Zoom room with us today that should be here? Why are we talking about Alison’s work today, and you know, and she’s not even here in the room?
The other thing is, I think information, again, is power in many ways, and how that information is disseminated, and who knows what. And we’ve seen so many instances today of where decisions in the company are getting made, that affect different people’s work and their livelihood and their projects, and they’re not even aware of it. It’s happening, and then they find out about it, oh, by the way, two weeks later. It’s like, well, that would have been nice to know when you made the decision, or at least pulled me in when you were making the decision.
And so, again, I think overcommunicating is really helpful right now. And then the other side of this, I think, is remembering that people are going through a lot right now and especially I think women and women of color. There’s an additional level of burnout going on, additional levels of stress, and certainly lots of mental health challenges going on right now. We see women leaving the workforce in droves, unfortunately. We’re about to lose decades of, again, advances we’ve made. And we’re losing all that talent. And if we’re going to preserve, again, our organizations, our businesses, and these talented people, we’ve got to find ways to think about how can we be allies to them right now to keep them there? What are the things that they need? And get in touch with, you know, again, what is it that they need at this point that we can do? And it could be as simple as, hey, let’s just reassess your performance reviews, and maybe the goals and the criteria we’ve been using, we need to reexamine that right now, and reevaluate it for COVID, and make it more realistic for what’s going on. So there’s, I mean, just so many different ways we can do this as allies.
ALISON BEARD: OK, so we have a couple of questions that I’d love Tsedale, you, to answer this. Jessica is asking about how you put this into practice without tokenizing people. A couple of anonymous attendees are asking about being accused of white saviorism. You know, people feeling aggressed that you’re speaking on their behalf, or coming to their rescue, getting upset about that. So how does a white man who’s putting into practice the advice that we’re giving tonight, how does he avoid that?
TSEDALE MELAKU: So, I’ve been in positions where people have tried to step up on my behalf, but it wasn’t one in which they diminished my presence. Right? It wasn’t one in which they, where they minimized the aggression that I was experiencing. It was one where they recognize something happening. They did not minimize the impact of that aggression on me. And they were using their position, they were deploying their privilege, really, in a way that was supporting the core mission here, which is racial, gender equity, recognizing when these moments are happening.
The only way that we can combat white savior attitudes is by these individuals, these potential allies doing the work of educating themselves. Right? Recognizing when those moments are appropriate versus inappropriate. And you’ll be able to do that by doing the work.
ALISON BEARD: I’ll shoot this one to David. What would you say to a white male that believes their son will not have work opportunities one day because of the DEI programs that are being established, this push toward allyship? This is a stance I hear often in a focus group when an organization is looking to diversify.
DAVID SMITH: Yeah, and that’s a great question. And we hear that quite a bit. And this is, really gets into the zero sum thinking or the zero sum bias, in that, again, that for, in other words, for somebody else to gain, so for women or women of color to gain in the workplace, for them to level the playing field for them means that men or white men in particular have to lose ground or lose something in that case. Not necessarily, and not usually the case.
Because it, again, dismisses the idea that we, as we understand, as we grow and develop, and we reach these DEI goals that we’re trying to reach out there, the company gets better and expands. It get bigger. The pie gets bigger. I mean, the research has been very clear about what we’re missing in terms of GDP in our country, or again, across the world in terms of trillions of dollars every year because we just, because we go fall back on this zero sum thinking.
So the idea that we’re going to lose out, or we’re not going to have a job, while that might be the case in the immediate, right now from the work from home situation, because there are a lot of challenges in that, not the case overall from the organization, again, capacities increase as we begin to diversify and include more people into the company.
ALISON BEARD: Alright, let me ask one more question. This is from Jack. And I think it’s a good one to end on. How can we measure success, both as individuals and as organizations?
TSEDALE MELAKU: Success is when you can look at the leadership and see actual diversity, actually racial and gender diversity. So more than tokenism, more than one or two. You want to see a critical mass. You want to change white normative spaces so that it’s, that’s no longer the norm. You want it to be where anyone has the opportunity to gain access to that coveted position, whatever it is. But also, the only way we’re able to get to that point is if we’re recruiting, is if we’re actually pulling folks in and recognizing that they are capable of fighting against these, the myth of meritocracy.
Recognizing, understanding particular things that impact the way that we experience these spaces. So gaining access to professional development which is critical. Building that sense of community where you can have conversations about race and sexism and racism, and not feel uncomfortable because you’ve come to a point where everyone recognizes the importance of difference. But also the importance of tackling these structural issues that impede on everyone’s ability to be successful.
ALISON BEARD: Terrific. Well, I’m sad to wrap up, but we have to. Thank you so much to all of our audience. The questions were terrific. Thank you to Sixth and I. And most importantly, thank you David and Tsedale for sharing your insights with this live audience, and then for everyone who’s going to listen to the show.
TSEDALE MELAKU: Thank you, Alison.
DAVID SMITH: Thank you. Good night.
ALISON BEARD: That’s Tsedale Melaku and David Smith. Together with Angie Beeman and Brad Johnson, they’re co-authors of the HBR article, “Be A Better Ally.” And David and Brad’s new book is, Good Guys, How Men Can Be Better Allies for Women in the Workplace.
This episode was produced by Mary Dooe. We get technical help from Rob Eckhardt. Adam Buchholtz is our audio product manager. Thanks for listening to the HBR IdeaCast. I’m Alison Beard.
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